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Saturday 22nd November, 2008

Letters

Posted: May 12th 2004, 17:46

Dear Felix,

I am astounded that the "Palestine" society is surprised that people such as Gillian have expressed disgust at their recent showing of the Hamas/PLO propaganda film at IC. The apologists for the film and PLO terrorism in general, write (Felix April 29th) that a "single quote" was taken out of context. This is disingenuous at best, as the entire film, as indeed are most of the activities of the aforementioned society, are a thinly disguised pretext for demonising Israel and the Jewish people and furthering the myths espoused by the totalitarian dictatorships that make up the Arab world today. Indeed the human "suffering" that the PLO sympathiser alludes to in her letter is the direct result of racist ideologies that don't accept the presence of a non-muslim democracy , an island of civilisation, in a sea of repressive Arab regimes. These 22 states, which have waged no less than 6 wars against Israel (a country the size of Wales) in their quest for domination of the entire region, are the root of this suffering and not the Israeli people defending their country and their women and children . Half of the Israeli people today are refugees or descendendants of refugees from the Arab world who were ethnically cleansed from their ancestral lands.

The recent massacre of the entire Hatuel family where the pregnant mother and her four young daughters were murdered in their family car bears testament to the depths of barbarity of "Palestinian" Arab terrorism. While the Arab masses remain hungry and illiterate their governments continue to spend their vast oil-wealth fuelling the fires of war and terrorism. Perhaps their society should consider hosting an event that deals with the vast human rights abuses in the Arab world, including the repression of women, minorities and the few seeking dialogue and democratic reform.Instead of concentrating on the real problems of the Arab world, those inherent in totalitarian societes, they seek to spread myths and half truths to demonise the "little satan" - Israel and deflect criticism away from the Arab regimes themselves. As Josef Goebells said, "if you repeat a lie enough times people will start to believe it ", and so it seems that this is the strategy adopted by the film's producers and the apologists for "Palestinian" Arab violence.

yours sincerely

David Shalom

UG 4 Chem/Management

Dear Felix,

Whatever Gillian said about PalSoc inciting terrorism, only shows that she is one of many ignorant people who do not know the difference between terrorism and legitimate war. In fact current global events and attacks (and hatred) towards America and its allies should not be that surprising.

Firstly it's a bit of a joke to see how fascinated people are with the American abuse of Iraqi civilians, when it has been happening in every country America has been to or (not been to!).

The fact that weapons of mass destruction (and I can't believe how overused the term 'WMD' is) have not been found is something that I'm sure everyone is tired of pointing out.

Iraq is in chaos, so is Afghanistan and don't think for a second that these people have been liberated.

Personally I don't see much wrong with suicide bombing, and this is a moderate view.

It's pretty straightforward to justify when the Israeli military (terrorist) has unbelievable support from America. There is not enough space in a thousand pages to start discussing that.

And as for September 11th, I don't know why it is such a huge deal, as this terrorism is the same as American terrorism. Only the Americans have done it slowly so we wouldn't notice through the sanctions that killed half a millions Iraqi children, through the sanctions that crippled Libya (disgusting that a nation suffers for one plane bombing, and the money paid to the victims, ludicrous!), the blatant, blatant one-sided attack on the Palestinians, the list of course goes way on.

You may think I am being insensitive, but the fact is 1 American is NOT equal to 5000 Somalis, Iraqis or anyone else. It's 5000 times worse, and the consequences will be 5000 times more.

Sincerely,

Aadil

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Comments

What?s Behind the Double Standard

Oh, the humiliation! The horror! No wonder the press cries out! Worldwide revulsion, disgust and Moslem rage! Shame on you! Of course they?re not speaking about what Sadam did to his own people: the gassings, the rapes, the strangulations, the mass graves, etc. Or any of the atrocities countless Moslem leaders inflicted on their fellow Moslems over the years. But why not? Weren?t those things disgusting too? Is there something going on here that ordinary people like you and me don?t understand? Well, actually there is. But it?s all very simple really, and it makes perfect sense to Moslems. It?s only we infidels who have difficulty understanding it. You see, in the Islamic view of things, the lives of infidel kafirs like us (Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and everybody else), are ?worth? something between a Moslem woman and a camel. I?ll bet you didn?t think there was room between those two lowly categories to wedge a fingernail in, let alone the vast majority of human beings on this planet, but there is. There?s room for each and every one of us. It?s another of Allah?s miracles. At the top of the heap are Moslem men, Masters of the Universe, the purpose of all creation, the exclusive custodians of the eternal Truth, and the people whose feet we kafirs should all be kissing. Below them are Moslem women, whose job it is to wash those feet. Below them, us, then camels and other useful creatures like sheep that don?t make too much of a fuss when a Moslem man whips out his knife. So when a Moslem man tears out another Moslem?s fingernails and rapes his daughters and slits all their throats, well that?s just the way things are in Allah?s dysfunctional little family. And when a Moslem man shoots dead a pregnant dhimmi woman and her four daughters as they drive through a part of the world he thinks belongs to him (and of course every square inch of this planet rightfully belongs to Moslems and to nobody else), well, that?s his natural-born right as Master of the Universe. Even the kafirs of Europe don?t dare deny him that right.They don't deny them the right to cut off an aid workers head and parade that across the world's TV screens. That's OK he was Ameican, British, Israeli, Italian some other infidel... But if a kafir, a dhimmi, one of those so-called people whose role in this life is to be properly submissive to and respectful of his Moslem betters, should turn around and strike back, well that?s completely unthinkable. It?s against Allah?s holy law. It?s as though a wife should, perish the thought, hit back when her husband beats her. It?s a shameful humiliation, a travesty of Allah?s creation, it can?t be allowed to stand, and it ?fuels Islamic rage.? It?s shameful and humiliating because what the dhimmi is saying when he strikes back is that maybe, just maybe, Moslem men are not the pinnacle of all creation, the reason why the whole universe exists. And when the dhimmi creates a free society in which people have real hope of better lives, while Moslem men use their oil billions to create one hellhole country after another, the dhimmi is saying: ?Don?t give me this crap about how wonderful you are, and how Allah himself has chosen you to rule the world.? And that is a message no Master of the Universe wants to hear. Not from his wives, not from his slaves (and yes, they do have slaves in this twenty-first Christian century), and certainly not from the dhimmis, the sons of pigs and monkeys. So he runs for refuge to his holy books, which tell him to ? guess what? ? kill the infidel! And if it?s not possible to kill the infidel right now, to do what Prophet did: lie to the infidel, make a false peace while you prepare for war, and plan for the long term. Send him your masses to overwhelm his country with the fruits of your wombs, take advantage of the kafir?s unsuspecting nature, use his democratic laws and rights to undermine his society, enlist the help of the dull-witted, remind him of his wars against you and when he mentions your wars against him, call him a racist, and in the end ? maybe a hundred years from now, maybe a thousand ? you will finally rule the world as Allah intended. Patience. The infidel is too stupid to understand what you are doing. And that is how the dhimmi world came to recoil in revulsion at photos of Moslem prisoners being abused, while the Islamic world danced for joy at the photos of the charred bodies of murdered dhimmi hanging from a bridge. Do you understand now?

Joanna

Re: Letters

Joanna, Your attack on muslims, shows both a very typical presence of naivety and ignorance associated with your type of people. Either way, what America is trying to do is not being like Sadaam, so it in no way justifies prisoner abuse. Anyway, to me this is nothing, since america has been murdering muslims indirectly for the last decade, and for the last half century through the terror state Israel. You have no idea what Islam is, and you have blown out of proportion the 'western/ignorant' stereotype of an Arab man. I have no more words for a person of your idiocy. Aadil

Adil

A reply to David Shalom's comment

Dear David, You have not really defended Gillian at all, infact, I think you do EXACTLY what she does and that is to make broad, paranoid, sweeping rants that are irrelevent and still do not make a solid point. Very few people respect this recreant trait when debating however I do commend you on your good language skills. You can go on forever about whose fault the conflict really is but for heaven's sake let's grow up. I believe that the creation of an appartheid racist state (Israel) is the cause and you think that a bunch of stone throwing kids dissolutioned with being missiled by F-16s and Apache helecopters are somehow "terrorists" are the root cause of the problem. Thats fine. But propaganda doesn't add much to the debate - people are tired of hearing the memorised facts you make repeated over and over again and really David, it just makes you look very childish. Whatever charges you make against Arab governments I will put equally to your government and both you and I can find countless examples of Israeli transgressions that occur on a daily basis. Apart from making a silly pointless Kilroy-Silk style rant Gillian used a single quote from a film she has not even seen. This is completely indefensible and demeans Gillian's (and your) case and shows that you really have nothing to say or add when you have to sink to such low depths. Please make more meaningful responses otherwise just save yourself the embarrasment of looking petty. Ahmed Ismail

Ahmed Ismail

Re: Letters

Dear Ahmed, when one wishe to apportion blame then one must indeed find out who is at fault. There are 22 Apartheid Arab states in the Middle East. In Saudi Arabia Jews are banned from entering the country, Non-muslims are banned from practising their religion and non muslims are BANNED from entering a 5 mile radius of the cities of Mecca and Medina (a far cry from Jerusalem- the eternal Jewish capital where freedom of religion is granted for all including muslims by Israeli law). Let us continue. Jordan (the Arab state that makes up 80% of historic Israel or British mandatory "Palestine") has it enshrined in its constitution that "Jews" are forbidden to buy land in the "kingdom" (read feudal dictatorship). But of course the true- Arab/Islamist Apartheid does not only apply to Jews it also applies to other "infidels"- including the 250,000 Christians murdered in Lebanon- a Christian country that has been ethnically cleansed and occuppied by the Syrian Dictator. OK a few more examples- well lets talk about the 100,000 Black Slaves in Southern Sudan who are being opressed by their northern Arab Muslim taskmasters. Let us talk about the Kurds being murdered in Qamishli in Syria. The systematic persecution of the Coptic christians in Egypt or the opression of women in the Oil rich Gulf states. Who are you kidding? Israel is the only non apartheid state in the Middle East! As to F16s etc- a little history might be pertinent again. Firstly the Arabs that today call themselves Palestinans- were citizens of Egypt and Jordan in 1967 when these states launcehd a war against Israel in order to annihilate her.The war was joined in by Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and they received financial backing from Saudi Arabia and even some Yemeni support too! These same Arab states, have 22 Armies. Egypt has dozens of F16s Syria has dozens of Migs. Jordan has hundreds of tanks, helicopters etc... Israel is a David of 6 million souls fighting against 250 million Arabs who wish to "throw her into the sea" to quote Nasser. Youths throwing rocks at soldiers in the Arab world would get shot. But of course you are again being disingenuous since I consider suicide bombers, snipers and roadside murderors- or gunmen who even steal the body parts of their victims to be a scourge to humanity. Indeed we should all commend the Israel Defence Forces in their war against such terrorists. As to Kilroy silk, granted the man is hardly brain of Britain but he made some reasonable points in that he asked why it is that the Arab countries have remained stagnant- or even declined over the past 400 years yet they have more land, oil, people and antural resources than the USA?

David S

Re: Letters

David, I can easily match your facts and figures, in fact I can give you ten times more, but I am in the middle of exams and I have no time to point out to a person like you (whom I believe has the typical israeli/jewish attitude, for which the is NO hope for). However answer this question? Why is it that most of the world except America and its huge jewish lobby, condemn Israel on a daily basis. NOT because the Israeli side is not being heard, but because your aggressions and terrorism, is unbelievably overwhelmingly blatant to any rational person. As for 1967, first of all I still believe as Hamas do that Israel should not be in existence, and I still believe that creating a state there, was ridiculous. But obviously with American support the arab nations have no chance against your illegal nuclear military might. I am too tired to go into the issue of Mordechai Vanunu either. As Ahmed said GROW UP! America and Israel are the ultimate terrorist, and your so called 'terrorists' are just a by-product. Look at what you've done. And trust me America and all its allies, will have to face the consequences, and I know that things like september 11th is just the beginning, and will continue until this blatant open 'diplomatic' terror stops. AADIL 2nd Yr

Adil

Re: Letters

If you believe in the ideas of hamas as you admit. There is indeed no point talking to you. All the Arab states are creations of the colonial powers circa 1920's. In my opiion the right of Israel to exist and the Israeli people to govern themsleves in their historic homeland is not questionable. It is a fundamental right. There is no right for Islam to dominate the region and its fanatics are on the run- and a good thing too. Rantisi, Yassin and the other terrorists theses are but the tip of the iceberg. The Hamas will be liquidated, it is only a matter of time. The Arabs better learn to internalise that Israel is here to stay and better learn to deal with their own problems. As long as Arab agression against Israel continues, as long as their Adil's out there whose wet dreams are the genocide of the Israeli people- the Israeli people and the IDF will remain and the Arabs will continue to loose. And not only on the battlefield. It is unfortunate that there are those like Aadil who benefit from the fruits of civilisation and democracy and yet seek to destroy that very civilisation that has allowed them to progress. As to the "Jewish" lobby comment- this is rather symptomatic of the racist ideologies that belie your arguments. As to my "jewish" attitude- it has lasted 6000 years and will continue to last long after the name Hamas/PLO etc are but a forgotten footnote in history...

David S

Re: Letters

You have either not understood my response or just simply not bothered reading it. Again, you are going on about "who did it". This is precisely what I mean about childish and petty - and by replying to my last comment with yet more pro-Israeli spin proves you have nothing substantial to say.

Ahmed Ismail

Re: Letters

Two opinions, two people not listening to each other, both claiming moral authority on the basis of how many women and children got murdered last week. Interesting. Ahmed and David, perhaps you can both tell me, why isn't there peace in the middle east? Is it the biased media attention from both sides (I haven't been able to find a single arab site pointing out that the mirror pictures were fake) while the israli army is lying about the "murder" (quote from israli solider after the viewing of on the scene video footage) of a british photographer one year ago. Maybe there is something that I'm missing, but why can't you all live side by side, like the republicans and loyalists, the basques and the spanish, those in sierra leone, ivory coast, india and pakistan...

MarkF

Re: Letters

Sorry, but your examples are lame at best. India and pakistan are continually fighting one another over Kashmir- where islamic terrorists are being given tacit approval by the Pakistanis to launch attacks on India. The Basques are still fighting the Spanish- OK they don't kill as many people As the Jihadists but they are just as bad and as to Northern Ireland- sorry when did peace break out there I must have missed it. The conflict between Israel (yes this is how to spell it) is part of the greater war waged by Islamists against the "infidels"- ie non-Muslims or even muslims they don't agree with. As to 2 opinions etc. there is NO moral equivalence between Israel- a sovereign country defending its people, and the Arab terrorists murdering civillians in the name of their Islamofascistic ideals. There will only be peace in the middle east when people like the PLO and their supporters know that they will never achieve anything by waging war and whatsmore will loose more and more every time they launch such wars.

David S

Re: Letters

Hi Mark, Muslims, Jews and Christians living side by side is something we all want without exception. But in order to end this bloodshed, we NEED justice for all. If I come into your house, throw you out and deny you your right to come back in then you would naturally be very angry and want back what's rightfully yours. I believe that once Palestinians are given their human rights of return to their own homes and land - they will begin to embrace the Israeli people and not view them as hostile occupiers but as brothers and friends. What DOESN'T solve the conflict is sending out bulldozers and F-16 fighter jets to demolish and blow-up homes in some vain attempt to "exterminate the terrorists". On the Palestinian side I also think that suicide bombs are very wrong tactics that only serve to kill innocent civillians and don't do anything but inflame Israeli response. I really hope that David's racist and bigotry views are not shared by all the Jewish Community here at IC. Disrespecting other religions and labeling all Arabs as terrorists as David seems to be doing at any available opportunity does not serve but to discredit the pro-Israeli case and is just antagonistic at best. I would like to hear from moderate members of the Jewish community in this thread who share my points of view. Thanks Ahmed

Ahmed Ismail

Re: Letters

To label others "racist" without any back up is not only dishonest but very intellectually weak. Ahmed (above) and Aadil before both avoid/ignore the comments regarding the role of the Arab states in the wars/terrorism against Israel and instead chose to call me racist(Aadil) and then David S racist too! They should the weakness of their arguments by being unable to counter a single point but instead chose to insult others since their male pride has been hurt. They show their true chauvinsitic colours by this and reveal their true sympathy for opressive regimes. In Israel women are free to vote, to drive to wear what they like. Moslems and Christians can vote in elections and have freedom of religion. This is a far cry from the Arab countries that treat their women like dirt and persecute and kill ethnic minorities. Frankly, if you become a sewage(suicide) bomber than i support anybody who fights you- whether it be with F16s or crossbows. I admire the courage of the Israelis who are standing up to these Arab bullies and the only bigots I can see on this page are the 2 men above who attack me for being a feminist and David S for his desire for justice for the Jewish people trying to live in peace in their homeland.I think David S seems like a sensitive guy, pity we don't have more of his likes here in my department where the boys seem to spend most of their time guzzling beer and making lewd comments about women who would'nt even give them a second look!

Joanna

Re: Letters

Joanna and David, Neither of you are moderate in any way. The only reason I took a very aggressive stance, was because global neutral opinion has to a certain extent been shifted towards thinking Israel can actually be considered a real nation with real rights. Well, that is acceptable if they behave appropriately. Firstly, suicide bombing is absolutely justified as a means of self defense if you have NO F-16s and the most powerful nation in the world who would do anything for you (america). Secondly, what is your proposition for peace. It seems more than obvious that Israel should obey the UN and get out of Palestinian areas and stop occupation. If you did that that is still not enough, because there are all kinds of other violations that need to be looked at afterwards, including WMDs etc. This is why the whole world needs to get together, and either through sanctions or force get Israel who are the diplomatic terrorist (the worst kind) to obey global laws. By the way all Israelis are culpable. As for your attacks on Arab equality, I find it incredibly offensive that westerners who no nothing about other cultures can class women in burqas as requiring liberation. You people have much to learn. Unlike, David and Joanna who to any observer are blatantly narrow minded and racist, I do accept that quite a few arabs are wrong and foolish in their rights towards women. But that is not Islam as anybody would know, and arabs do not constitute the majority of muslims. It saddens me that the Arab nations have not got together, and built up their military and economies wisely (without trying to please america) and take matters into their own hand and use force on Israel. In fact the kings and sheikhs to me, are also deeply respsonsible for these problems. They no nothing about Islam. If you think muslims are unfair, then why is it that it is the fastest growing religion in the west and in the world. There was the story of Yvonne Ridley the british journalist, who was held hostage by the Taliban, yet has decided to become muslim years later. By the way mark, Peace come after justice NOT before. Aadil

Adil

Re: Letters

Mark, Big deal! So the mirror photos are fake. The british are responsible for what the Americans do as well. And anyway are you that naive as to think that americans abusing prisoners is new, its been going on for more than a decade. Do you know how many horror stories there are of normal muslims being abused in the US after september 11th. Of course guantanamo bay. How can the british be an ally with a nation that is so beyond the rights of human beings. aadil

Adil

Re: Letters

Again we have Muslim fundamentalists taking over the talkboards and calling everyone racists except themselves who are the true racists since they support opressive regimes and wish to spread their religion through force. In fact Aadil says above that he wishes that the Arabs will all unite, not to better themselves, not to bring themselves into the 18th (let alone 21st) century, not to feed their people, but to come together and use force against Israel. ie he advocates violence and war. He openly states hi support for suicide terrorism which while that makes him a repulsive individual at least makes him more honest than the "palestinian" society and their bvosses at Islamic Soc that pretend to be moderate but support all the rubbish he does! If Aadil thinks that Israel has no right to exist (and no doubt he probably supports Islamic terrorism in other parts of the world too such as Kashmir and Chechnya) than what right do ANY of the arab countries have to exist as I know it. There is no dearth of volunteers to be the executioners of the Jewish State since the Arab Muslims consider Israel a cancer in their midst that must be uprooted, either by war - as in 1948, 1967, or 1973 - or by continual terrorism. In the forefront of the campaign to eliminate the Jewish State are the radical Islamic dictatorships, such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Libya, who themselves are recent creations of the European colonial powers. Now for a bit of history aadil: The Ottoman Empire lasted for a little more than 600 years. Following the breakup of this powerful Empire during World War I, the following countries, among others, were established by colonial powers such as Britain and France. Iraq was created by then-English colonial secretary, Winston Churchill, and became an independent kingdom on October 3, 1932. Saudi Arabia gained its independence on September 23, 1932. Syria was administered by the French until it was granted independence on April 17, 1946. Libya got its independence from Italy on December 24, 1951. In their desire to get rid of the ?cancer? in their midst, Israel, these newly created states are trying to act as midwives at the birth of a fictional country, ?Palestine? inhabited by a fictional people, the ?Palestinians?. How do the Arabs get away with these incredible fabrications and lies? They have a most powerful weapon. That weapon is called oil. The whole world has an insatiable need for it and the Arabs sit on vast quantities of this black gold. There is an American saying ?The squeaky wheel gets greased,? and a billion Muslims are one giant squeaky wheel. Their giant propaganda machine controls much of the world?s media; this propaganda machine has convinced most of the world, certainly the European countries, that the ?poor? Palestinians have had their homeland stolen and occupied by those ?nasty? Jews. Never mind that very few of the Arabs who now live in the area of what is now Israel, have lived there not even 100 years. Most of these Arabs left surrounding Arab countries to find work and better their living conditions, after the Jews started to rebuild their country. Oil became the controlling factor in the diplomacy of all the industrial nations, including, unfortunately, what has often been called ?Israel?s one and only friend?, the United States!

Hitesh

Re: Letters

Hitesh, Your right I was being irrational. When I said arab countries should use force, I meant force through diplomacy I guess, cos at the moment they are doing nothing. As for the arab leaders, their palaces and luxury and their biased laws,I believe are backward and unislamic. However 95% of arab civilians aren't like them. And I don't think democracy is a solution if you think of America (Patriot act and so on). Let me lay down a few points though: Even with oil at this point the arab nations are still like puppies to the US. Let us say Israel should exist. Then can you deny that out of every nation in the world, it currently holds the record for the MOST (and by a big margin) UN resolution violations. Hasn't the US made a total mockery of the UN with their ridiculous use of their VETO powers OVER AND OVER AGAIN, most of the time with the whole of Europe against them even? Heres a big question: HOW CAN THE WORLD ALLOW ISRAEL TO HAVE SECRET NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND WMDs AND WHY ISN'T THERE EVEN A CALL FOR THE UN TO STEP IN. Okay any kind of civilian killing is bad, but why is suicide bombing worse than a missile from an american built Apache helicopter? How many times have you seen the Israeli tanks and bulldozers shooting at palestinian children as they bulldoze their homes? How many foreign journalists have been killed purposely by the Israelis? TRUE, you may say there are two sides to the story, BUT can you honestly tell me that one side isnt totally outweighing the other? I think its very rude that you call the Islamic society bosses believing in rubbish. The reason muslims have to be vocal because it seems as though we are being persecuted all over the globe. As for terrorism, fine some terrorists are crazy, but a lot of them aren't doing it for fun. There's a reason why someone would kill themselves. America didnt even consider it. They invaded Afghanistan and Iraq under the guise of WMDs and liberation. Both countries are in chaos. Do you have any idea how illegal Guantanamo Bay is? How can rational people in this world keep their mouth shut. Well anyway, however trite this may sound. the western media (and the british are a lot better than the US though) are biased, and people have been inadvertently blinded towards American policy. I aplogoize for being overly aggressove as that was purely down to some anger building up. I think this board needs to tone things down a bit with attacks on races and individuals. Aadil

Adil

Re: Letters

"The british are responsible for what the americans do as well". Why? I would hope that if we had any major control over the white house they wouldn't let the Israeli government get away with half the stuff it does. I realise that this could be hard to believe as we do have a "special relationship" with the US, but remember that the US has a history of doing what it wants, allies or no allies. The only reason for 'getting into bed with them' is that we can have a greater influence over what they are going to do. Someone needs to control george dubya! As for peace coming after justice, that would be great. Which did come first though, the chicken or the egg?

MarkF

Re: Letters

The british are definitely more reasonable and have a better recent military history than the US. But as Amnesty Internation and many others have been saying, whats happening in Iraq is a coalition force. I understand that it is the UKs best interests to support the US. But Blairs unwavering support for that donkey of a president bush, has to stop at some point, where he can show some strength and take a stand for what he believes in. How much is too much?

Adil

Re: Letters

It seems clear to me that Aadil is a typical Islamic fundamentalist. He supports terrorism and opression because like most fundamentalists he is both stupid and evil. He really ought to return to the sewer he climbed out of. Thank God that America is cleaning these terrorists up. Iraq is a great start but it is time to carpet bomb Damascus, Tehran and Beirut. That is the only language these savages understand.

Joanna

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